Newmarket needs a new Library. 

That's been my view for years.

But it looks like no-one on the Council nor, astonishingly, the Library Board agrees with me. They are happy to make do with what they’ve got, putting their money in “outreach”.

The Library Board’s resident clown, Councillor Victor Woodhouse, dangled the prospect of a new Library at the Town’s Committee of the Whole on 8 April 2024 which was considering the Library’s “Report to the Community 2023”. He asked the Board Chair, Darryl Gray, and the Library’s Chief Executive, Tracy Munusami:

“We talk from time to time about the library expanding and doing something different and something more and I wonder if you can shed any light on the new building we've talked about? I think in the order of $40 million.”

As soon as the words were out of his mouth he confessed it was just a joke!

Oh dear!

Ten years ago, in 2014, I recall the former Library Chief Executive Todd Kyle making a very persuasive case for a new building. The Park Avenue library was too small. Newmarket spent less per capita than successful libraries in similar-sized communities. Ours is one of the smallest libraries per capita in the Province. The building was difficult to service and there was insufficient parking. People have been talking about a new library, off and on, for years.

Space at a premium

The Library Board admits space is tight. But they believe the way around this is to take the Library out into the community through “outreach”.

Unfortunately, we do not have statistics showing where (a) new members and (b) existing members of the Library live. Some councillors, such as Ward 7’s Christina Bisanz, have been wondering aloud if library services are reaching people in her patch, a million miles from the Library’s downtown location.

At the time of the last municipal election in 2022, there was some talk about opening a second branch but this never really got off the ground. Then people toyed with the idea of a mobile library. But that too was parked.

And the Deputy Mayor, Tom Vegh, no longer says:

“The debate over the need for a new public library is long over. The only question now is where and when.”

Today, his focus of attention is the Lendery, the Library of things, like pots and pans and power washers that people can borrow free of charge.

New Library no longer an aspiration

But what I find so depressing is that a new library is not even an aspiration. Not even to the Library Board.

Of course, the Town has other things to spend its money on such as Mulock Farm (which I support) but, at some stage, it will have to start thinking about a new building.

In the meantime, we need accurate, up-to-date statistics and explanations of what they mean. There are 5,357 new members but we have no breakdown showing how many live in Town and how many outside.

This information used to be given as a matter of course. 

In-person visits to the Library is new. How is that measured?

Annual Reports

Library Board Vice Chair, the effusive Councillor Kelly Broome, told the meeting on 8 April 2024 when discussing the Library’s “Report to the Community” that if councillors had all the annual reports lined up before them they would see the significant increase in services in recent years. Hmmm. I think that’s gilding the lily somewhat.

Library usage dropped off dramatically during the COVID years (as expected) but is now recovering. But many of the key metrics show us only slowly getting back to where we were in earlier years.

We still don’t have the full palette of usage statistics for 2023 (which are normally presented to the Board by April) but we do have figures from previous years. Here are the statistics for 2014 - the year Todd Kyle spoke out. And here are the figures for 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022.

A report going to the NPL Board later today shows that, in our area, Georgina and East Gwillimbury have three libraries apiece. Neighbouring municipalities such as Aurora and Whitchurch-Stouffville have a single library like us but with much smaller populations.

At some point Newmarket will have to bite the bullet. 

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Update on 16 May 2024: Newmarket Today: Newmarket Library eyes Monday openings







Click "read more" below for the discussion on the Library's Report to the Community 2023 which was presented to the Town's Committee of the Whole on 8 April 2024.

Newmarket Committee of the Whole 8 April 2024 

Mayor John Taylor: Next we have a presentation and that’s with Newmarket Library and their presentation to the community.  Welcome our CEO of the library Tracy Munusami to join us along with Darryl Gray who is the chair of the library board. Thank you for joining us.

Chief Executive Newmarket Public Library, Tracy Munusami: Good afternoon. Thank you, Mayor Taylor, council for your valuable time and attention today. For those of you tuning in on-line or in council chambers I’m Tracy Munusami. I'm the CEO of the Newmarket library. I'm here with our esteemed board chair Darryl Gray. We’re thrilled to present to you today the Newmarket Library’s annual report to the community for 2023. 

At the core of our mission is fostering curiosity and discovery and today we’re excited to unveil our efforts to connect deeply with and bring the library experience to the residents of Newmarket.

Next slide please. So today we're going to talk about the library board envision, what we committed to do last year, how we connected with our community, what we're doing to embrace equity and breakdown barriers, some stats for how we did in 2023 and our plans for this year.

Next slide please. 

Board Chair, Darryl Gray: Great. Thanks Tracy and through the Mayor and to council… I'm going to take the opportunity to introduce your Newmarket Public Library board of directors. We're a group of individuals who are deeply committed to ensuring the library reflects the needs not just of this council but also of this broader community.

So on the board I have the pleasure and the privilege of being the board chair with Kelly Broome, Councillor, being the vice chair along with Neila Poscente, Beth Stevenson, Rex Taylor and councillors Morrison and Woodhouse. 

Tracy will get into her presentation but you would have heard us last time we were here that the Library is more than just a physical space. That it is a collection of ideas and approaches to building communities. There’s an old saying that bad libraries buy books, good libraries build collections but great libraries create communities and that really  underpins our work together on the Board and hopefully you will see some of that  in the 2023 report to our community. Thank you.

Tracy Munusami:  Thanks Sarah. So as Darryl mentioned, last year we were here around this time to unveil the bold new vision of Newmarket library. More than just a rebranding it encapsulated our commitment to serving as a beacon of discovery in our community, a tech savvy hub delivering unparalleled value to all.

While our foundation is still rooted in books with our robust collection we evolved into something greater. At the heart of our community we offer a myriad of programs and services from outstanding programs to innovative tech offerings all within inviting spaces designed to ignite imaginations and cultivate unforgettable experiences. Every interaction with us is an opportunity to inspire and delight. 

Next slide please. So, reflecting on last years goals our mission was clear to seamlessly integrate our library into the vibrant tapestry of our community through strategic outreach initiatives, community programs and pop-up events in parks. We endeavour to bring the magic of the library to where people naturally gather. As we look back on the past year let's celebrate our strides in transforming spaces into hubs of learning, connection and belonging.

Next slide please. So, venturing beyond our library walls we embarked on a journey of community connection and exceptional service. Our travelling story walk invited community members to immerse themselves in enchanting tales in the parks.

We also extended the magic to the Main Street BIA by partnering with the BIA to bring another story walk to the businesses. Then we took our engaging programs and captivating story times to the parks meeting people where they are. Expanding further we reached out to Upper Canada Mall and the community centres and offered enriching programs and welcoming new members with shiny new cards. 

Recognizing the importance of meeting the community where they are, we transformed spaces like the Newmarket seniors’ meeting place and Old Town hall into vibrant hubs of learning and connection where we are committed to serving every corner of this community. 

Next slide please. We also tried to harmonize with our amazing community. In the past year we deepened our community connections, nurturing them like seeds in a garden. With invaluable feedback from our seed library users, we cultivated programs for plant enthusiasts like our spring and fall plant swap events fostering camaraderie and belonging among gardeners. And our next one is on May 11th if you're interested in coming. 

Expanding our reach, we spotlighted local talent with our inaugural local history/local author showcase, amplifying the voices of our literary community. Also partnering with the town’s recreation and culture department we extended the reach of our summer camp participants, spreading the joy of literacy and fun to eager campers week after week.

Additionally, we stood strong with the black community through collaborations with NACCA offering programs to the community and technology to their summer camps, fostering innovation and inclusion. 

We also fostered innovation and equity with repair cafes and forward-thinking seniors’ programs in partnership with Newmarket. 

Next slide please. Our commitment to affirming inclusivity and driving change has led us to dismantle barriers to access starting the year with transitioning to going fine free. 

Through attentive listening to our community via strategic planning surveys we recognize that the burden fines place on those with fixed incomes prompted us to explore alternate revenue sources.

Additionally we took proactive steps to enhance accessibility by opening our doors 30 minutes earlier. This simple change provided warmth and shelter to those seeking refuge in the winter months and resonated deeply within our community who now gather at 9:00 AM to use the library.

 Embracing diversity in storytelling and authorship has been paramount with 30% of our story-times featuring diverse narratives and adding seven new titles by diverse authors to our book club kits. We are amplifying underrepresented voices also highlighting vibrancy of our community. We are proud to host three drag queen story times last year. These events captivated young audiences and embodied our unwavering commitment to fostering inclusivity and acceptance in all its forms. They were also some of our most attended programs last year. 

Next slide please. So, this is the vibrant community. The thriving library by the numbers. So this year marked a significant milestone as we welcomed 5,357 new additions to our library family.

This is a testament to our efforts to extend our reach. Moreover, we succeeded in bringing many of those members back to the library which is great so resulting in almost 160,000 in-person visits and that's an impressive increase from 20,000 from last year. 

The circulation of items is 460,195 items further demonstrating our dedication to providing access to knowledge and resources. And that's over 100,000 more than last year.

(My comment: Really? See "Items borrowed from the Library 2014-2023", right)

Additionally, our innovative Lendery saw doubling of circulation indicating its popularity and utility within our community. And our dedicated staff answered 8,912 reference questions for our curious community. 

We also welcomed 9,356 individuals into our libraries to attend diverse programs so solidifying our role as a community help for curiosity and discovery. 

Next slide please. So what's next for the library? As we look to the future we are committed to building our momentum by expanding our outreach horizons and deepening our connections with our incredible partners. 

We aim to create unforgettable experiences and amplify our collective impact with a deliberate focus on inclusivity while enriching our collections with diverse voices, stories and perspectives that reflect the beautiful facets of our community. 

Our programs will continue to be beacons of inclusivity welcoming everyone to participate in meaningful experiences and celebrate diversity and foster connections. 

We remain dedicated to ensuring that our Library remains a welcoming space for all, vibrate with energy and creativity, accessible to everyone who walks through our doors and together will continue to shape the future of library experiences making them accessible, engaging and enriching for all. 

Next slide please.

Thank you so much. 

Mayor John Taylor: Thanks for a great presentation and it's always a great update to hear about the new and exciting things that are happening in our library. Any questions/comments from councillors?  Councillor Bisanz and then Councillor Broome.

Councillor Christina Bisanz: Thank you Mr Mayor and through you… Many thanks for the presentation Darryl and Tracy. Really appreciated the update. As I also appreciate when the library comes out and participates in Ward events in the summertime and other occasions when we've had community groups participate and to try and raise profile in the different parts of the town about the library and the services that it provides.

And my question is sort of related to that. With the demographics that you're tracking are you looking at all at where the members are. I guess you call library cardholders members do you? Or what would they be called?

Tracy Munusami:  Library members. We are trying to use members more than patrons.

Councillor Christina Bisanz:  But I was just wondering if you sort of track where people who are visiting the library and have library cards actually live, where they come from within the town? Because certainly if you're planning to expand outreach horizons I think that would might give some indication of where there's an opportunity to just raise even more awareness of not only the physical library itself but the different services that you provide.

CEO Tracy Munusami: Through you Mr. Mayor…. the last time we did take a look at the ward split for library cards was when we were doing our strategic planning process and that was back in 2022. There were some wards that did have more library card users than others and so we've used that data to try to target where our outreaches are in the community. 

Councillor Christina Bisanz:  So did you note that there was a difference or is it equally spread across the town?

CEO Tracy Munusami: So I haven't done a follow up to see if the increase of the 5300 new library members this year has kind of bridged those gaps. I can find out.

 Councillor Christina Bisanz: The services that the library provides are exciting. They’re innovative. They’re fun. And, as you say, it's not just about books - and taking books out - but really applying a lot of different sort of knowledge enhancing activities. And so it's really exciting and I think that if there is, you know, an indication that certain communities are, perhaps, not as aware and able to participate because of that, it might be just, you know, worth looking into and then sort of doing a bit of a geographic assessment and then putting a little bit more emphasis in some areas.

Through you Mr. Mayor… I’m just making some assumptions but I would think that there might be some parts of the town that just need a little bit more outreach and they would benefit from that. Thank you. You do a great job and I'm always excited to see the new things that that the library is coming out with. 

Mayor John Taylor: Great. Thanks. I think the interesting question there is when you see the data and if it shows a discrepancy from one ward to another do you put more outreach into those that are more engaged or into those wards that are less engaged? 'cause there's an argument both ways I guess.

I'm sure the Board had some good conversations about that. But… Councillor Broome 

Councillor Kelly Broome: Thank you very much. Through you Mayor Taylor…  and thank you very much Darryl and Tracy. We’re very very proud of all of the work that the board and notably the staff have done to get us to where we are today. 

Tracy how long have you been with the Newmarket Public Library now - or should I say the Newmarket library? We don't say “public” anymore. 

CEO Tracy Munusami: Through you Mr. Mayor I've been at the library about 2 1/2 years.

Councillor Kelly Broome: Right. And in 2 1/2 years you've done a strategic plan. You’ve done a rebrand… you know the work that we're moving forward… and, you know, the leadership you provided. I just wanted to give you a shout out. I know I say it to you every time I see you but really we’re extremely proud of the level and where we are with the library in terms of our brand and our reach. It’s significant .

If we had the annual reports lined up you would see that significant increase since you joined us. So thank you for that.

My question was similar to where Councillor Bisanz was going in terms of data. We’re definitely at a point now where measuring data is critical and (it’s) great we have some really great data to share. And that data is going to help us move into different spaces and places in terms of our new brand and our strategic plan. And I'm just wondering if we have a plan for that data in the future to either present to Council (or) present to the community, like, what are we doing with all of the great numbers that you showed us today for example?

CEO Tracy Munusami: Through you Mr. Mayor… We are going to release the “report to the community” report on to our website and put it up on our social media so that the community knows all the work that we've done this year. We were just waiting until after this presentation and, as always, I love to share the numbers and data with this group. So anytime that we are welcomed back we can bring back another report.

Councillor Kelly Broome: And just one follow-up through you Mayor Taylor… can you talk a little bit about the collaboration that we're experiencing between the town and the library? I know we have IT, marketing. How are we collaborating between the two? 

CEO Tracy Munusami: (Pause) I'm sorry. Through you Mayor Taylor… so we have been  collaborating with many departments at the Town of Newmarket including the IT collaboration which is helped move us along to make sure that we are up to date and secure against cyber security threats. We’re also working with communications whenever we're putting messages and press releases out to local media. And we are always collaborating with recreation and parks especially with being out in the community centres and working with the Parks Department to get the story walks out. They've been instrumental in making that happen as well.

Councillor Kelly Broome: Great.

Board Chair Darryl Gray: Maybe if I could just add… The relationship with the town is instrumental to the success of the Library. And I think the two together works so much better than two alone. As we've seen over the last couple of years that relationship continues to develop between the library and the town because we know we're working in the same ecosystem, we're serving the same residents and we’re meeting the same needs. 

So, we continue as a board to examine and review where those opportunities for efficiency and growing our footprint together lie.  You know that relationship will continue to grow because it's so essential to our success as an institution working in the downtown core trying to reach out to the broader community.

Councillor Kelly Broome: Thanks so much.

Mayor John Taylor: Thanks. Councillor Morrison.

Councillor Trevor Morrison: Thank you and through you Mayor Taylor… Thank you Darryl and Tracy for the update. For the annual report. 

It's a pleasure and honour to sit on the board. It's been my first opportunity to be a part of the Newmarket library board and to see all of this that's happened… the strategic planning. And it's really quite evident in terms of… as we were talking about the numbers… the data really just goes to show the effort that’s been put in by the board but really, most significantly, by the staff and seeing such incredible increase in numbers.

 I think you said over 20,000 visits compared to last year. 100,000 items borrowed. Almost 10,000 people attending these programs. And so it's just great to see that the strategies and that the plan that's been put in place is really coming to fruition.

And so, again, I just love the data. Love the numbers. So again, I just want to want to echo that and again just thank you for the presentation, thanks for the update. It's always great to share such such great news about the Newmarket library with the residents. So thank you.

Mayor John Taylor: Great. Thanks very much. Deputy Mayor. 

Regional Councillor and Deputy Mayor Tom Vegh: Thank you very much Darryl, Tracy and all the board members and all the staff. Tracy, you have put your stamp on the library in the last two years. Congratulations on that and some wonderful staff. The community and people… certainly members around our council table are noticing. 

I do have quick question though about the Lendery. Our library of things. That number struck me too. I think it's over 2,200 things being being loaned out.

Can you give us a bit of an idea… I know there are board games there…  they're like countertop kitchen appliances, a few power tools and some other games. Things like that. But can you give me an idea of what's really, really popular or what you'd like to see grow? 

CEO Tracy Munusami: Mr. Mayor… it all depends on the time of year. During March break the board games did really well. This time of year our gardening tools, the power washer. Those will all be out constantly during the holidays, definitely anything related to baking goes out and so that really speaks to the importance of the Lendery because it really cuts down on waste and really promotes reusing and sharing and community and, you know, you don't need a power washer more than maybe twice a year so why not borrow it from your library?

Regional Councillor and Deputy Mayor Tom Vegh: Thank you very much. And a bit of follow up question for that. You do pretty much outreach for people wanting to donate items and it's also a bit of a storage question I understand too… because I go to the library and I see the cabinet where many of these items are. It’s a relatively small space… but I can certainly imagine we have another space where many things are…  so just a little bit of information about where people can find out what your inventory is and also the type of things that you're looking for and that you need that perhaps the public can donate. You mentioned power washers and his great demand for those even though the demand is not a 12 month demand perhaps you can give us a little bit of information on that. 

CEO Tracy Munusami: Through you Mr. Mayor…  The lendery right now… all the items we have are kind of what we can fit in there. If we are looking for donations we do advertise on our website and social media what we're looking for (pause). Yes. We're very limited in storage and so that's why we haven't put a call out for any new items at this time.

Regional Councillor and Deputy Mayor Tom Vegh:  Now I also understand from, I believe, Cycle Newmarket but I could be wrong…. but you have some sort of arrangement for lending out electric bikes…  or are there any other… which is a great thing…  perhaps you have some other partnerships to in the town for lending out that you can speak to.

CEO Tracy Munusami: Through you Mayor Taylor, we work with Newmarket Cycles and their storage container is going to be open sometime in the next couple of weeks to loan out bicycles. They have a fleet of about 20 bicycles and helmets, locks, everything that you would need for bicycle safety. And all you need is your library card to check out the items and the storage locker is located in the seniors’ meeting place parking lot and they are there Wednesdays and Saturdays. But their information will be up once they are ready to go.

Regional Councillor and Deputy Mayor Tom Vegh:   Alright. Thank you very much for that and again congratulations to everyone involved.

Mayor John Taylor: Thank you very much. Councillor Kwapis.

Councillor Bob Kwapis: Thank you Mr. Mayor. 

Tracy, Darryl, thank you very much for bringing the library to the forefront of the people. I'm very fortunate to have the library located downtown and almost every day I hear how important that is from what you mentioned… being part of the community, reaching out to the community, getting involved with the BIA as you did those storybook.

Even this morning at my board meeting with the Newmarket seniors' place we talked about your involvement with the computer signage or sign-ups… keeping people abreast so what's going on. Some people that might not necessarily understand some of the nuances are even helping people to get connected to the Internet to fill out certain issues that they can't fill out any other way. So you are an integral part of our community and I do want to thank you for that.

I did want to mention the Newmarket Cycle but the deputy mayor already jumped the gun on me. So I do want to say that that's a fabulous program that you got involved with. The fact that's all you need is a library card to try out a bicycle and actually… as a matter of fact… that the seniors place this morning we were talking about the fact that they had no idea that they can actually go there with a library card and even rent out an electric bike… and rent out, I mean, free of charge which is an amazing thing. And to get their bike repaired. And it's all because they are part of… a member of the library. So I just want to thank you for all the work that you're doing and the amount of focus that you have reaching out to the community as a whole.

Mayor John Taylor: Thank you very much. Councillor Woodhouse.

Councillor Victor Woodhouse: Thank you. Sorry I missed the first part of your presentation I was unable to be here earlier. So thank you for the presentation that I did not see but I am familiar with the numbers as a board member. 

So we talk from time to time about the library expanding and doing something different and something more and I wonder if you can shed any light on the new building we've talked about? I think in the order of $40 million.

No! no! We don't have any plans for anything like that. However the library has been very instrumental - seriously now, this is the serious part – or at least very active in reaching out into the community. And very effective at the number of places that it's been. Any thoughts - and again as a board we've discussed this - but is that something you plan to continue to do… is to have more touch points, I guess if you will, and perhaps it was highlighted in the report if that it was what you've already done in terms of reaching out but, more, is there other areas that you're planning to, kind of, outreach into the community.  

Board Chair Darryl Gray:  One of the greatest compliments I think we get as an organization when somebody says you're everywhere. I think our intent is to be. And as the motto says “everything for everyone”…  I forgot so I'll get that wrong…  but outreach is a central component of what we do knowing that we have a fairly constrained space in the downtown area.

But a library is, as I said earlier, isn't just about books. It’s about ideas and sharing ideas and coming together to celebrate the ideas that make up a community. So Tracy and the team obviously have a fairly ambitious plan for the coming year to be everywhere as much as we possibly can to share in the stories that make up an amazing Newmarket. 

So I'll let Tracy talk a little bit about that. But before she does I will say one thing. I do have to acknowledge how amazing we have… in terms of a staff team at the library. The work that you're seeing out in your wards and in your communities is really the result of Tracy's leadership and the team coming together and recognizing that there's an important role for us to play in the community and being in the community is where we need to be.

So thank you Tracy and the team for more details about where will be in 2024.

CEO Tracy Munusami: Yes. So in 2024 what we're looking to do is just increase the number of diverse programming that we're offering in the community and just try to reach out in more places, continue to work with the recreation centres and Upper Canada Mall to deliver some programming and maybe discovering some new places to be.

We also work with the Welcome Centre to offer programming there as well and a lot of our other partners throughout the community to expand our reach that way.

Councillor Victor Woodhouse: Excellent. Thank you. 

Mayor John Taylor: Great. Thanks very much. Any other comments or questions? Councillor Simon.

Councillor Grace Simon: Thanks Mayor Taylor. Thank you Tracy, Darryl. What a great presentation. You know the library representatives aren't just everywhere but you are everywhere. And I just wanted to knowledge the fact that Tracy you… you've invested a lot of time to come in and be a part of many initiatives with the town.

Anytime there's something happening Tracy is very visible and that, to me, speaks a lot about what you do, what you believe in and where you're investing yourself into really knowing the needs and, yeah, taking that back to the board and to the staff and applying it everywhere.

So that’s really excellent work that you're doing. We're really proud of you. The library is more than just books but I just was wondering - in the area of books and reading - what are the demographics that you're seeing in the library? I get a majority is… like… is there all elderly? Younger? Or is it a good mix of people?  Like what level of the Library is most used with the reading material that you do have?

CEO Tracy Munusami:  Through you Mr. Mayor. I could do a whole presentation on just that. 

Councillor Grace Simon: Awesome! OK.

CEO Tracy Munusami:   It's some off-the-top-of-my head statistics… when it comes to the physical collection in the library the children's collection is by far the most circulated and lots of families are coming to use the library and the children's department. 

We also have a lot… a high circulation number in our adult fiction collection. Our #1 circulating online collections are romance fiction. So that is very interesting. It's an interesting thing to note (that) a lot of our non fiction that goes out are things like our cookbooks and our biographies do really well as well. 

Councillor Grace Simon: Awesome, yeah, there's a whole… I have not taken advantage of the online renting that is available in the library to… people can rent books and movies and on-line and in person so you can you still rent out DVDs I hear which is really cool. 

Somebody texted me and said our Wi-Fi isn't that steady in the country so we access the library for being able to rent DVDs and, like, who has DVD machines anymore? But you do! So thank you so much for really caring for every aspect of the community and people's lives. It’s so important. So I just appreciate what you guys do. Thank you. 

Mayor John Taylor: Great. Thank you very much.

 I think at this point I don't have to ask if there's anybody else who wants to make a comment but that's great. There’s a lot of a lot of interest and a lot of enthusiasm, members of council, but also I think in the community in terms of what the library is doing and especially the focal point on the outreach and there's been so much of that.

A couple of thoughts I just have. One is that… I think you've done this before… but a lot of interest in the data and sharing some of the good news story and I don't know if you're thinking about maybe an infographic or something that members of council could share as well and tell the good news story in a way that's very digestible and accessible.

The other thing I do want to do is just finish off by congratulations on the elimitation of late fees or work in that area. I think it's incredibly important. At the home show I was speaking with one of the team members at the library and how important that is to some low income families… and, you know, you've got people with multiple children… to think that a late or lost book could be a barrier to somebody accessing the library for their children, to me, just seems unacceptable. And so I think this is a really important direction. I know the work… we're trying to make sure that there's equity, as always is at the forefront, and making sure that everybody in our community can participate in what the library has to offer. So it's a great new initiative that's worth recognizing as well. And so again thank you very, very much to both of you for the presentation. Any other questions or comments? OK, all set. Thank you very much. We appreciate it.